Posts by I Want to Believe

32

JW Children in Meetings

by blue_summmer20 in

hi my first post.. for the people that grew up in the religon, do you have any memory of being spanked for not sitting still in the meeting?

i see kids acting like kids but the parents take them out and spank them for something like not sitting still.

some of my worst memories are my father taking me out for a beating with a belt or his hand.

One thing that contributed to my wanting to stay away from meetings at first is my being a new father. My son, of course, could not sit still for more than 45 minutes at most. But I am very much against spanking; my wife tried to spank him one time at home for being particularly bad, but it made both of us physically ill--never again. So she would spend most of the meetings in the back trying to sooth him.

One father at the Hall has no such problem and regularlly takes his 3-year-old girl out back... I've never been at a meeting without having to see to her red-eyed from crying, but sitting still. I want to take that "brother" out back...

10

Biblical definitions of marriage

by ParadiseCircus in

so marriage is currently the topic du jour in the tms and this meme's got me thinking about the bible and marriage:.

but when i bring this up with dubs they say that 'jehovah tolerated this so that the israelites could shore up the numbers; it wasn't necessarily sanctioned by him'.

can i get some help with a rebuttal?

I Want to Believe

Well, several of those scenarios in the chart are from the Mosaic Law, so those situations were sanctioned by Jehovah and, in fact, were commandments. It wasn't a matter of tolerance, because nobody wanted to marry his sister-in-law, but Jehovah made them do it. Same with rapists, obviously.

15

Paradise= Watchtower 1926 says we will have Superman powers and fly!!

by Witness 007 in

look up in the sky!

it's a bird, it's a plane...no, it's a jehovahs witness!!.

golden age aug 26 192 p.751 "...you may have wondered how accidents will be avoided in the kingdom, since we are told nothing will hurt or destroy.

I Want to Believe

I forget where they got the idea, but I remember one car group where a pioneer/elder's wife suggested that we'd be able to teleport.

34

My critical thoughts about Paul

by I Want to Believe in

so this is an area of thought i had before even before i fully took the apostate plunge.

i started noticing that almost everything about the congregation pointed back to paul.. "do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together.

" not jesus' words.

I Want to Believe

"If Mark 9:38 shows that Jesus is inclusive then what do Matt 12:30 and Luke 11:23?"

Indeed. I must admit I haven't finished researching this area, but pulling one thread unravels so many more doesn't it? Many scholars (according to Wikipedia at least ) think Mark was written first, and that Matthew and Luke both built off that. And from Acts we know that Luke was a fan of Paul's...

But like I said, I'm not trying to be dogmatic, I'm just groping along the walls here, looking for something to hold onto. At this point, I'm not ruling out that one (or all) of the Gospels themselves could have been subject to the tampering, bias, faulty memories, and exaggerations of their writers (and rewriters) in the years after Jesus' death.

34

My critical thoughts about Paul

by I Want to Believe in

so this is an area of thought i had before even before i fully took the apostate plunge.

i started noticing that almost everything about the congregation pointed back to paul.. "do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together.

" not jesus' words.

I Want to Believe

Great thoughts all around. This is turning into a good discussion! Just a couple of months ago I would have felt the need to figure out who was "right" and who was "wrong," but I no longer feel the need to be as dogmatic about everything.

I did, though, want to respond to Slimboyfat's characterization of Jesus as a real stickler for people following him: One thing that's stuck with me on my journey out thus far is Mark 9:38[NIV]: "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." (..."because he was not following us."[ESV]; "...because he wasn't in our group." [New Living Trans.]) 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.

Normally that saying is twisted around, to say that outsiders are the enemy. But what Jesus actually says is something very inclusive, not exclusive, saying that unless you're against Jesus, you're by default on his side. So this absolute stranger casting out demons in Jesus' name didn't have to join them, he could just keep doing his own thing.

34

My critical thoughts about Paul

by I Want to Believe in

so this is an area of thought i had before even before i fully took the apostate plunge.

i started noticing that almost everything about the congregation pointed back to paul.. "do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together.

" not jesus' words.

I Want to Believe

So this is an area of thought I had before even before I fully took the apostate plunge. I started noticing that almost everything about the congregation pointed back to Paul.

"Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together." Not Jesus' words.

"I do not permit a woman to teach." Did Jesus say that?

Qualifications for elder and servants (and thus the need for an organization): all from Paul.

In fact, while the last study Watchtower mentioned the importance of the Apostles in forming the congregations, very, very little of their influence is seen in the Bible, or history for that matter. But here comes Paul, fresh from being a rule-loving Pharisee to straighten everyone out and get things organized, and from him come basically all the rules and minutiae of organized religion that divide would-be brothers and sisters from each other and have been fought over for 2000 years. The winners get to write history, after all, and Paul's version of Christianity won out. All from the letters of one man, one who was not a chosen apostle. He hadn't even seen Jesus until his self-reported encounter that those with him couldn't see (convenient). The only collaborator of Paul's conversion is Ananias, who Paul says has "a good report with all the Jews." Hmm. Doesn't seem too much of a stretch that he'd help out a man taught by the well-respected Gamaliel.

At this point, some conspiracy theorists would say Saul/Paul was an infiltrator, even the first apostate who drew the infant Christian congregation away from the apostles and Christ's true message. Maybe. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and just say he was a strong personality who was used to rules and ceremony, and in his zealous imperfection set about organizing the congregations, contrary, perhaps, to Jesus' intent.

This theory crystalized even more for me when I read JWFacts' excellent essay on "organizations," which in turn makes more sense if you consider that Paul, the chief organizer, was misguided in his efforts.

I better stop there before I get a reputation for crazy ranting. I was actually surprised, once I started researching religions, that Paul doesn't get critically viewed as much as I thought he would/should. I'm still trying to figure him out; I'd like to hear what others think.

49

Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.

by I Want to Believe in

been lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.

this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.

needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.

I Want to Believe

Mind Blown:" Has anyone noticed the amount of new ones flocking to JWN "as of late"?! Growing each day!"

My cong. had a couple more df's in the last few months. I really knew I was on the way out when those announcements didn't make me sad.

Ziddina: I loved The X-Files! If I could figure out how to change my avatar here it would be to Mulder. Any episode that hinted at spirits was turned off, but when it was aliens and monsters it was okay to watch.

Iamallcool: It's been in the single/negative digits for 2 months now, which is an unusually long cold spell for Anchorage.

49

Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.

by I Want to Believe in

been lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.

this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.

needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.

I Want to Believe

I wish I had more time to respond to everyone right now, but, as you probably know, this site doesn't play well on mobile devices or work-standard browsers, which greatly limits my posting window.

49

Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.

by I Want to Believe in

been lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.

this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.

needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.

I Want to Believe

Thanks everyone; I didn't expect so many responses so quickly!

Yes, fading will be really hard because my son's babysitter is his aunt, a true hardliner. It's sad too, because my son loves playing with his cousins. Our only real option is to move out of the state (this Alaskan winter has been tough, so it's not too suspicious). But it'll be a couple of years for that to happen.

My wife is still looking for excuses, but she's reading stuff on her own now, so I've backed off a bit to let her go at her own pace. LIke I said, my initial "coming out" wasn't handled well--I was going off on every tangent and subject at a million miles an hour and didn't let her digest anything. If (when) I try to get my family out, it'll have to be more "Inception" style--plant an idea, which leads to a question, and make them think it was their own.

49

Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.

by I Want to Believe in

been lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.

this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.

needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.

I Want to Believe

Been lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).

I'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing. This means I got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the Hall except for Memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town. Needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.

When I was 15, the family moved to a bigger city and started attending again. I threw myself into the ministry, finally finding people to spend time with. Slowly, very slowly I started to make acquaintances--not friends exactly, though it was the closest I'd ever had. It was enough of a motivation that I threw myself fully into The Work, getting aux. pioneer hours even before baptism and becoming a full pioneer as soon as I qualified. Despite never having finished high school (when I said 'home schooling' I should have said 'home read-on-your-own') and having no social skills at all, I was a Servant within a year.

Even now I don't quite know why, but as soon as I finished Pioneer School my enthusiasm just plummeted. I had gotten 137 hours in August to make my yearly quota, but after the school, when the monthly requirement was lowered to 70 hours, I just couldn't do it anymore. I'd burned out and was feeling guilty. Of course, I was trying to live on my own on a no-education part-time job, so that might have had something to do with it.

Anyway, I ended up getting married soon after to another pioneer--the first and only girl I've ever kissed, naturally--and went about trying to get my life ready to take care of a family. I got my GED (with surprisingly high scores) and me and the mrs. attended the local state college. It wasn't looked upon as a good decision, but we didn't get too much flack over it since most of the "college dangers" didn't apply to a married couple attending together. Well, I had a pretty good head on my shoulders and was on the dean's list every semester (makes me wonder what I could've done had my intellect been nurtured as a child). But I was still determined to avoid the dangers of higher learning--for example, during Anthropology, when the evolution talk started I just stopped attending class, showing up only for tests under the assumption Jehovah would bless my firm stance and help me pass the class anyway (it worked; faked my way through every test and squeaked by with a C, the only real blemish on my transcript).

Looking back, my fading started sometime after that. It's true, higher learning did make me more critical. I was a Journalism major and editor of the college paper, and trying to read the Watchtower after my degree was a painful experience--I could see all the logical flaws, missing attributions, and just plain bad writing that I never would have allowed to see print on my watch. I tried reconnecting with the congregation, but most of my friends were gone, since that's what happens when teenagers grow up. Like many here, I had seen situations that were handled badly by the elder body, but put away those nagging thoughts as I was told. A couple of elders got DF'd during this time (unrelated offenses), several teenage marriages fell apart, and other problems I never thought to see in a "spiritual paradise."

After my son was born I made another brief try to rekindle my faith, but it didn't take. The assemblies grew excruciating, just rehashes of stuff to make you feel guilty about not doing more. On meeting nights I would get tense and anxious. Sometimes I tried to give myself food poisoning so I'd have an excuse not to go. Sometimes it worked. Gradually the guilt disappeared and I openly admitted to my wife I didn't want to go. It was a really slow road getting there, but something just snapped and the doubts started to run free. Maybe it was the overlapping generations, maybe I got tired of hearing the same basic talks regurgitated over and over again, I don't know. But I had to find answers.

As you all know, once you start you can't stop. I devoured everything and in short order went through denial, anger, regret, anger, relief, guilt, anger, etc. Since this went on way too long already, I'll just say where I'm at now with bullet points:

Info dumped on my wife (bad move), but she's been willing to read and consider so far.
All my family is in now, and most of hers too. Fading will be hard.
I still want to believe in God (hence the name) due to Pascal's Wager, but I'm finding it hard to hold onto anything. Once the questions start, they don't stop. My newest point of concern: Paul (I'll start another post on that later).
I've realized "worldly" people aren't evil. My disposition has never been better. I actually care about others now.
All the regrets and missed opportunities has propted a slightly early mid-life crisis, which I am struggling to keep reigned in, if only to prove that people don't spiral out of control on leaving the "truth".

So that's my story. I've got a stuggle ahead; I've been encouraged by some of you and hope to privide support to others as we go on this journey. And if anyone here is from Alaska, give me a shout. Thanks for reading.